Interesting Lawyers Podcast: Judge Larry Seidlin

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, and welcome to the first flagship episode of the Lawyer Better podcast. I am Russ Adler, your host and also a consultant and coach, to law firms. To learn more, go to lawyerbetter .com, my site. Our first guest in our first podcast today is the Honorable Larry Seidlin, a retired circuit court judge for decades here in South Florida. Florida, Broward County, Florida. I’ve asked Larry to come on to the podcast to give his perspective and his wisdom and his advice to lawyers,
whether you’re a young lawyer or a new lawyer. Anyone who appears in front of judges know that these people are all individuals, they’re different people, and you’ve got to get to know them and you’ve got to figure out their temperament in the best way to communicate with them.
Um, Larry is one of the most memorable judges who was on the circuit court. How long were you on the bench for Larry? >> I spent 28 years on the bench.
I was in the county court, circuit court, and just about every division in the court system. >> Yeah. And you and I are getting to the age where a lot of lawyers, young lawyers,
don’t know who you are. They don’t remember you. They never remember the case that put you on the map of publicity. But we’re going to come to that. Let’s start by having you give us a brief background,
your education, your employment history, and so forth. I feel like I’m taking a deposition here. But number one, you’re not under oath. And second of all, it’s not a deposition.
But we’ve both been through enough of those. So start from the beginning. I went to Hunter College where I majored in accounting and then I went to St.
John’s Law School for two years, and I transferred to the University of Miami Law School where I graduated. As I was in Miami Law School, I clerked interned at the U .S.
Attorney’s Office. And didn’t you play on the tennis team there as well? I was on the tennis team in Hunter College, yeah, I was captain of the team there. All right. And then I…
I joined the state attorney’s office in Broward County as a prosecutor. I spent a year and a half there. And then the sheriff sends a car for me. I figured I screwed up some case.
And he offered me a job as his legal advisor. I was really his valet because he was a very wise man. And we drive him at night.
to political functions. And we just hit it off. He decides to run for Congress. And he says, Larry, you’ll go with me to Washington. You’ll be my chief of staff,
and we’ll live at the Watergate Hotel. And I lived in a hotel for 20 years in Fort Lauderdale. I said, Sheriff, we have it so good here. Why do we want to go to Washington and be freezing again?
I said, let’s — here And is that when you applied for the bench or how did you get to be on the bench? I convinced him to let me run for judge he Sheriffs in the south that are most powerful political figures.
Okay, and so you ran for judge and you won I ran for judge and I was down a few thousand votes at midnight, so the media Had me as the projected loser But about three hours later it turned turned around and I got elected as the youngest judge in the state of Florida.
And snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. How old were you as the youngest judge in Florida at the time? I was 28 years old. I spent 10 years in the county court. And then the governor of Florida appointed me to circuit court.
Who was the governor at the time? It was Bob Martinez and he always reminded me that his heritage was from Spain. And I spent… spent 18 years on the circuit court bench.
Okay. And what division? Well, I was in a bunch of divisions. Every chief judge sort of would, they would sort of satisfy which division I would want to go into.
Okay. But you circulated through all of them during the time that you were judged? question, because lawyers of all stripes, of all specialty areas, of all practice groups, maybe,
and hopefully are listening to this podcast and can benefit from your wisdom. That’s why we brought you here. So my first question to you is, what was the most difficult division to work in as a judge?
Well, absolutely the criminal division. In the criminal division, the judge has to be very quiet and silent, you know, and kid around. Because if you’re it’s a murder case or a manslaughter case,
that case is going on appeal, and therefore everything you say is on their transcript. You have to be very careful. Okay,
so let me ask you this, okay? Looking back all the years you sat on the criminal bench and you probably handled some misdemeanor criminal cases when you were on the county court as well,
okay? what were the best attributes of prosecutors? And after this, I’ll ask you the same question about the public defenders or the private defense attorneys. So let’s start with the prosecutors because,
you know, to give some value to our audience, you know, I’d like you to tell us from all of your years on the bench, the prosecutors who you remember, you know, what do you remember them for?
Or they, you know, Maya Angelou, the poet said that people are not going to… to remember you for what you said or even what you did. People are going to remember you for the way that you made them feel.
And you know, running into a lot of my friends from back in the day, I was with a bunch of judges last night at some party. It’s really true. You know, they said, “Well, you were always this way or that way,
and I remember you as, you know, all nice things.” Right? Well, Russ… But what do you remember? As a prosecutor… Again, for the prosecutors… what attributes are the best ones that left you with the best memories of them?
The lawyers that would appear in front of me, that were working for the prosecutor’s office, would be dignified, they’d have decorum, and they’d be respectful.
In other words, when you make a ruling, let’s say there’s some prior motions before the trial. you thank the court no matter what decision is,
because it’s a long battle and the judge is the one giving the grades. And I found the lawyers that did not interrupt the other lawyer.
You let the other lawyer speak, even if they’re saying things that are untrue. You let them finish what they have to say. You don’t interrupt. Number two on the hit parade is,
you don’t talk to that lawyer when the judge is in the courtroom or in his chambers. You don’t directly have a conversation with the other side.
Right. And those are all pretty basic things. I think a lot of lawyers know that. But then again, one great challenge that we’re seeing in newer lawyers is the fact that for the past three years, most court court,
maybe not so much in criminal, but most court appearances are done by Zoom. And you know, one thing that I’m noticing is that on the lawyer side, they’re just not — it’s hard to train lawyers, you know,
on Zoom during COVID. And some people have remained remote, right? And you know, it’s very a different experience when you go to a Zoom hearing versus a live hearing.
Have you been — well, you’re still — my understanding is you’re still practicing all these things. days to this day how long you’ve been practicing for all together well I left the bench I left 16 years ago and now I’m practicing law for the past 16 years 16 years plus how many on the bench 28 you’re trying to guess my age I’m trying to figure out how many years you’re practicing so it’s like 44 years it’s longer
it’s about 40 because I was a prosecutor and legal visor I’d say it’s about we’re reaching towards 50 You know Larry you strike me as a very relaxed guy And I remember you from when I practiced as a very relaxed and even funny judge If I could just turn to the whole judicial temperament thing How would you describe your own judicial temperament when you were on the bench?
well You watch a James Bond movie or one of these movies and the bullets are flying. You must remain calm and deliberate and keep your sense of humor because we got to get through today and many other days beyond.
So I never would show anger or disappointment to an attorney. in front of his client or her client and If I if I felt the lawyer went Too low went below the bar.
I would then speak to that attorney privately and I had a big chambers Because I was right so long but I had a chambers the size of a bowling alley Yeah, I remember it was very long like something you’d see in a movie but you know but to but to sum it up again You are a judge who really had a sense of humor Was always smiling and funny.
I’ve really never saw you get upset or angry or yell at anybody And is that a fair description of your disposition or I’m sorry your temperament as a judge? Yes, okay now can you describe during the years you served?
How would you describe the judges on the other end of that spectrum? You In other words, you are on the light -hearted, funny side. Some people thought that you weren’t serious or were kidding around because,
you know, you used humor, which is a very effective weapon and shield, actually, in litigation. But what’s on the other end of that spectrum of judicial temperament?
Well, you have every element of personality of the individuals that that we had a black robe. We’re surrounded by mediocrity in every field.
I’ve been in so many fields in my lifetime. And I would say to the sheriff who was one of my mentors, an old Irishman, I’d say this person is acting like a meatball.
He says Larry talk about another judge or please solve I’m just asking about judges. Yes, and the temperament on the other end of the spectrum from yours Just describe what that person would be like.
They would be serious Much more serious than you and in terms of their optics and how they come across to lawyers, right? Yes Would they have a sense of humor? Do they all have a sense of humor like you? No, I I Was sort of the right -hand person to each chief judge each chief judge made me to their administrative Judge.
So every Chief Judge has to run for reelection every two years. And I had a good relationship with every judge in that courthouse downtown in Fort Lauderdale.
Right, and that’s part of the temperament. But is that– I’m just asking yes or no. And I was not putting any names on anything. I’m trying to avoid a little bit of that. I get that. And you know, many of the judges who served during your time are either retired or have passed,
right? Yes. And there’s a new wave of judges in there. We’ll get to that in a minute. But based on everything you remember, to sum it up, judges on the opposite end of the temperament scale would be much more serious,
not a sense of humor, and, you know, to the, you know, maybe sanctioning, more willing to sanction lawyers and things like that. I can answer your question in a quick story. Good. All right. I’m at a judges conference.
The judges meet twice a year at different parts of the state of Florida. So I would wear my shorts, my tennis shorts, because I always play tennis. So a bunch of judges from Jacksonville,
Tampa, they said, “Come out with us to dinner tonight.” So I’m in the car, and I’m talking, and they’re laughing, and they say, “You’re not from New York, are you? If you’re from New York,
my father would be spinning.” spinning his grave, knowing I got a New Yorker in my car. You gotta get out of the car. It’s pitch black out. So I convinced them to let me stay in the car and we go to some redneck place for dinner with a drink and Johnny Walker.
And then at the end of the night, they turn– – You mean Jack Daniels? – Yeah, Jack Daniels. – That’s what I thought. Keep going. – And at the end of the night, they said, “Tomorrow, the Jonas suit.” suit, tomorrow put on a suit.” And just say yes.
So the next day they elected me the vice president of the judges’ conference. The judges cover every element of the kind of people we deal with every day.
And you’re blessed when you become a judge. It’s an enormous undertaking. I thought you said it was going to be a… brief answer. I’ll shorten it right now.
The point is the temperament of other judges on the other end of your spectrum, the ones at the judicial conference, just describe their attributes. That’s all we’re looking for. Now I really feel like it.
That was like a cross examination. So answer the question, please. I would, as a practicing lawyer, you have to be patient and calm. calm with whatever judge comes in front of you.
And the Florida bar does not want us to criticize judges. They don’t want that. You must be patient, as you are with your friends and your loved ones.
Yeah, but so does that mean that these guys are impatient or these judges, men and women, can be impatient on the other end of the spectrum? Because again, look, you have to know. your judge You have to get to know your judge and hopefully you can have a good Report with the judge,
but they’re not all the point is they’re not nearly all as approachable as you once were Light -hearted as you once were all those serious at the same time. Is that is that pretty accurate?
Yeah, I would say I Mean I ran for election six times. I was unopposed no lawyer would want to take me on because because thank God I was liked in the community.

Okay, that’s good. Well, you’re tough to take on in a podcast as well, but we will get through this together. So Larry, let me ask you, have you ever heard the old saying, “A good lawyer knows the law.
A great lawyer knows the judge.” So is there any truth to that or, you know, what are your thoughts about that proverb during the time that you were on the bench?
and nowadays as a lawyer? It helps me enormously with my background when I appear in court. There’s good memories of me with the judges and the lawyers.
And even my opposition treats me with distinction. Yeah, but that’s all because you’re a former judge. But most of the lawyers out there,
including ones who will listen to this podcast, are not judges and don’t have that leg up. A lot of times they are unknown. The judges don’t know them. Or maybe, you know, their only encounters have been on Zoom when these soft skills,
these interactions just aren’t present. Which is really a big problem out there. And I work with individual lawyers on the mindset coaching part of that. Which is a big part,
right? But I’m just asking… how about do you think it’s true and now you’re giving advice and your guidance to lawyers who are listening to us. To them as lawyers, a good lawyer knows the law,
a great lawyer knows the judge, and I’m not trying to imply any impropriety there. I’m just saying, you know, knowing the judge, the benefits of that. So just if not all,
the judges got there because they have strong brain power. And therefore, you must remain strong as the attorney. But you also need to have some flexibility.
You need to have a flexibility also as a level of intelligence. You need to be flexible and adjust to what’s taking place. Kind of the good, like…
to go with the flow. Almost to go with the flow, remain strong, remain committed to what you want for your client. But you need to have some flexibility.
And otherwise you’re not gonna do well in the case that you’re working on and you’re gonna burn out. I’m still thank God going strong. I have told these years.
I’m… I’m enjoying it, but you’re enjoying it as a lawyer Yes, so let me come forward to nowadays, right? So nowadays you’re a practicing lawyer you meet with clients you You get clients and you participate sometimes in cases as the liaison with the client.
Yes Just generally speaking. How do you find that? I refer to that as the care and feeding of clients and oftentimes clients clients can be your worst enemy, right? So do you feel that you’re able to handle that well based on your years of experience?
Yeah, I partner up with the top lawyers in the different areas of the law. One of my primary responsibilities is speaking to the client.
I always speak to the client within the same day. Okay, but aside from the responsibility… part, which is a given, and that’s, you know– But a lot of lawyers are not doing that.
Well, and I think that’s why the number one cause of bar complaints, to my understanding, is failure to communicate, failure to return phone calls, failure to be responsive. You definitely have that part locked up.
I’m talking, I’m talking, I’m at 11 at night. Right, but I’m sure you’ve had easy people to deal with and really difficult people to deal with. I got a bunch of nuts too. So, what about being a– flexible communicator?
Is that something you found important in the care and feeding of clients of of all types and stripes? Or as I was an accountant, I was a school teacher.
I was a professor, been an author. And you were a cab driver as well in New York City. Yeah, they said, yeah, the New York Post had me on a front page. Taxi cab driver, former taxi cab driver in charge of Anna Nicole’s body.
I remember that well. Okay, so you brought up the final thing I’d like to visit with you about here. You know, I mentioned that a lot of the young lawyers I talk to and deal with do not know who you are because they’re just so young,
and many of them don’t remember the Ann and Nicole Smith case. I know she’s still pretty popular in social media, and all of that her legend lives on. That’s how it is kind of like a modern day Marilyn Monroe.
So what happened was several years ago, about 2007 or 2008, some may remember that over at the Hard Rock Casino in Hollywood, Anna Nicole Smith was there as a guest.
And unfortunately, it turned out that she had overdosed on medications. And since it was in Broward County, probate issues would land in the probate court.
And this one landed in your lap because there was a dispute. dispute about where she would be buried. Tell us a little bit more about that issue that was before you,
and that ultimately propelled you to the national spotlight. Well, when I had the in and out call case, it was 16 years ago. She was a pop icon. She was the second coming of Marilyn Monroe.
She dies at the hard road. Rock Casino. It’s in Indian Reservation, but it’s in the city of Hollywood or neighboring Hollywood. And the case winds up in front of me,
because I have to decide where we should bury Anna Nicole’s body, because different family members and friends were contesting where she should be buried.
Oh, one group wanted her buried in the U .S. .S., and there’s some family members. – Yes. – But who wanted her buried in the Bahamas, and why? – Well, why is a complicated story,
an argument. – But just the point is, the son was buried there, right? The son died there, was buried there. And was that ultimately the reason why, the argument, the strongest argument, about why she should be buried in the Bahamas?

• Yeah, and I took this guy next to me, Russell Adler. He came with me to the Bahamas. – Okay, we’re gonna get to that one. – All right. – But I wanna get to the ruling first and what happened at that time,
  okay? – Right. – So, some may remember that during a particular hearing where things got emotional between family members, I mean, all judges have emotions.
  Some show them more than others. You’re a very, you know, you’re very transparent about all of this. of these things. And what I remember, it was really the only time I’d heard of that,
  but who else but you, Mary, you began to cry on the bench during the hearing. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. You got emotional. I teared up. I was throwing in the towel at the end of the case.
  What do you mean? You were making a decision? No, I was going to retire. I knew shortly after the hearing. expiration of the case when it ended. So I was thinking of all the cases I had,
  and all the kids, young people who I had touched, their souls. I knew that was the end of an era for me. But what was going through your mind?
  Is that why you got emotional, realizing it’s the end of your career? I was also– we worked so hard. in trying to get the right decision for Ann and Nicole. Right. But wasn’t that a situation where,
  you know, someone was going to come out of their disappointed and the other side happy that they got their way? You knew that. Yeah. Well, they appealed me immediately. They ran up to the fourth district court of appeal where I sat for a week as an associate justice.
  Okay. And they ran up there. and The appellate court within a day or two Affirm my decision so they expedited the appeal because we had a body that you have to be buried somewhere Yes,
  it was decaying and it had to be buried. All right, so Ultimately, you decided that she was to be buried in the Bahamas Yes, ultimately Her son had died a few months earlier also from an overdose on sand.
  Yes Yes. Yeah And and then I decided With the help of the attorneys in the courtroom that I would bury her in the Bahamas,
  right? And Larry you mentioned earlier, but you and I did take a trip over to Freeport I think that’s so to look around and just kind of get current or just get your eyes on all the places that there’d been so much evidence and testimony about,
  right? I know you were very curious to see that, but you were also working on your book. >> Yeah, I wrote a book in 2010. >> And what was that called? >> The Killing of Anne and a Coal.
  All right, so you and I went over there for some photos, and if you could bring up, Christian, we have a photo of you kneeling by the graveside there. [BLANK _AUDIO] And the stone is– – I look like a kid,
  yeah. – You look a little younger, but you still look pretty good for your state of the age. But yeah, so the headstone there is etched with Anna Nicole,
  obviously, and also on the right, and the son, Danny, on the left, right? – Yes. – And how were you impacted by that visit? It was an interesting trip.
  We went to– a lot of different places. We even stuck our heads over the wall of the walled compound where she was living and all of that. But what were your thoughts?
  What were your sentiments at graveside for Ann and Nicole? Well, it’s interesting. I made a decision in that courtroom. And I wasn’t given all the facts at the time.
  So I’ve had reservations. about where she’s buried since. Her son, who had no relationship to the Bahamas,
  other than to see Anna Nicole’s child, he was buried there. I later felt that his body should have been exhumed,
  and hers should be exhumed, they should be buried in there. Texas. Yeah, but you didn’t have jurisdiction over the Sun’s burial or body Did you my Russell’s always smart?
  Yes. I had no jurisdiction over his, okay? But but you did so I understand what you’re saying But you can only work with what you had jurisdiction over very good.
  I got that so Larry that going So you’re gonna you were gonna be partially my therapist who I think that’s gonna kill you for the past 20 years. And I know you, but that’s really the subject of a different podcast,
  because mindset is really a huge part of what I do. And it’s the reason for so much progress that so many lures I work with make. But this is the part about imparting wisdom and experience.
  So with that said, Larry, going back to your ruling when you got tearful, Saturday Night Live, actually spoofed you and had a skit. And they did it twice.
  They had to make fun of me twice. So why twice? Because it weren’t good for them. So I will put links to that in the show notes so our viewers can take a look at that. It was a while back.
  I remember it was hysterical. It was. My wife hates it. Okay, but how did you feel about it when it was on? I just think that it’s all fine. It’s all fine.
  fine. You keep going. In this lifetime, you keep moving. You keep jogging. I said to Diane Sawyer, “You’ll leave your enemies in your dust.” That’s a good one.
  Leave it behind you. Learn from the mistakes. Learn the lessons. Yes. And forget the emotional part. Right. So why was your wife so upset about it? And, you know, what are her thoughts? She didn’t like the act that imitated her.
  me and didn’t like that part of the trial. He looked just like you though, bald guy. He has my hairline for sure. But I know you take things in jest and I think that’s good.
  In my work that I do with lawyers, I really work on the fact that humor can be both a shield and a weapon. I always used it very effectively to communicate.
  communicate because if I could make a judge smile or laugh with some smart -ass line or you know quick joke that’s always a good thing and but the only thing that would upset my opponents even more is if I had a jury laughing.
  You make a jury laugh that’s very upsetting to the other guy who may not know how to do that but do you agree that humor is one of the most you know valuable lessons to take away those of us who use it and very self -deprecating.
  -deprecating humor. And also like my partner Carl Carmen of 17 years who’s you know well, he always used to use humor. In fact, whenever we were around somebody else, he’d say to me,
  Russell, there’s a Greyhound bus leaving town at six o ‘clock tonight. I want you under it. – Yeah, as a lawyer, you should not exhibit anger,
  a hostility, you know, who just doesn’t want to sit there. there and listen to that all day long. Make your argument, make it strong, and make it deliver the messages kindly as you can.
  Right. You know, what I like to tell people is to fight fire with water, not fire. And what I hear from, you know, judges lately is that the younger lawyers are really struggling.
  I understand why we spoke about… about that earlier, but perhaps to be more giving and forgiving, not to take things personally, and to use humor as either a sword or a shield.
  You agree? – It’s very difficult to have the proper balance. And I try to help as many attorneys as I can. And I know you had the golden touch.
  when you practiced law. It depends who you ask, but thank you. Well, you were like, Liberace was with the piano, you were like that with a jury. Thank you.
  Now I try to impart that knowledge and wisdom to the next generation. I’ve tried enough cases. But I do appreciate that. Well, you always held lawyers in that courtroom. Thank you.
  You had sort of like even a dance step when you would walk in that courthouse. Really? Yeah. There’s no video I could replay, unfortunately. So Larry, as our final question, here’s what I’d like you to do.
  I’d like you to look at the camera in front of us. Keep it on the wide shot, please. Okay. And look at the people who are going to be watching this podcast or listening to it and give them your final words of wisdom and advice.
  advice. In this practice of law, as in the walk of life, you need to continue to have a balance over here.
  To the left. There you go. Oh, sorry. Look me in the eye. I’ll start again. Yeah, like you’re ruling from the bench. Make your ruling. And in this lifetime, and in the practice of law,
  you must maintain a balance. You must keep your your wits about you. And the sheriff who was so close to me and others who have advised me and helped me through my career,
  you must keep doing what you’re doing each day pretty much the same. You exercise, you eat well, and you try to always do the right thing.
  When in doubt, as the fall Florida bar journal had on the front page when in doubt, don’t do it Do everything buy the book and and righteous Because it’s not worth it.
  Otherwise Nothing is worth getting up in the middle of night and not being able to sleep. You do everything properly There you go Well,
  thank you so much retired circuit judge Larry Sideland. I’m really honored to have you on the first Episode of the lawyer better podcast. I hope our users get some value out of this I would love to get some feedback in the comments and I’m going to put those links to the Saturday night live skit in the show notes and If you haven’t subscribed yet,
  please hit that subscribe button and let’s get a following going here because I’m here to give value to you. Thanks and have a great day.