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Interesting Lawyers Podcast: Legendary Criminal Lawyer Fred Haddad Gives His First Interview

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, and welcome to the Interesting Lawyers podcast. Today, we have a very special and most interesting guest, maybe one of the most interesting guests I may ever have on this podcast,
Fred Haddad. Fred, how you doing, man? – Good, Russ, good to see you. – You look a little rough. I know you’re a little tired. You say you just got off a plane from California? – Yeah, I just flew in. – You living out there these days? – Half and half.
My son’s in college out there. My wife’s out there working, so I go back and forth when I’m not. in trial here. I don’t ever want to retire, so I go back and forth.
That was going to be one of my questions. But let’s start at the beginning. So you’ve practiced about 50 years down here? Oh, and I’m 50, yeah. Mostly in Florida, but I know you’ve tried cases all over the country. Yeah, I’ve tried cases in probably 30 states, but mostly in Florida. But mostly criminal stuff? Very rarely will I do a civil. I did when I was young in the old days when I was young.
they actually was before the smugglers that really Got hit. I had Sanstern and Paul Hodges partners and Hodges was a civil lawyer So I did that occasionally how to do his cases for him and I would try a couple of I just in false arrest cases.
We defended a medical now Sanstern had the first million dollar verdict in Broward County and so we worked on that it was an aviation case I did a lot of of aviation work when I started out.
Yeah, most of these guys are either retired or have passed on. Yeah, Sandstrom’s dead. Hodges 104. Wow. Yeah, he’s still alive. You’re like the last of the Mohicans. Yeah, I think, uh, let’s see.
Dave Bogan, she was a still practicing and myself. And I think that’s it. He was a prosecutor when I started. Lyons retired. All the rest has gone. My best friend out of Miami, Steve Bronis,
retired. I tried the Irish Republican Army case with him, one of the nicest guys in the world. Zimmit’s still working. He and I were together for close to 30 years. Yep,
Bruce Zimmit, also one of my professors at the law school, loved to have him on. Maybe you could help me get a hold of him. So Fred, let me start with this. I was up north somewhere and someone said to me,
oh, you’re from Florida. Let me ask you a question. Are all the lawyers in Florida like– like really, really tall? And I said, “No, what the hell are you talking about?” And he says, “Because everyone from Florida says they have the biggest lawyer.” But,
you know, when I think of the biggest lawyer, the whole 27 years that I practiced, you were always considered to be the biggest lawyer on the criminal side, right?
The other legend about you is you were the only lawyer on the criminal side. who could get away with not wearing a tie in court, and I don’t just mean state court, I mean federal court,
so is that still the case? Yeah, I don’t, I’ve changed a little bit as I got older, I think when I hit 50 I started getting a little more mature in wearing a tie in trial,
but I’ll tell you a funny anecdote about not wearing a tie is, I’ll tell you a couple, one of them was Jose Gonzalez with my mind. was the finest federal judge there was, is,
I think he’s still a lobbyist senior. And I was representing Ron Catch -Torey, who was number two in the Broward Sheriff’s Office, who was charged with some money laundering,
some stuff related to an alleged forge will or something. And he was indicted by Brian McCormick and all those feds. And, um… Ron was an extremely good -looking guy and beautifully dressed.
Of course, they say he made a lot of money. So anyway, we’re getting ready to go to trial, and Bruce Emmett had his wife. And I told Ron, make sure you dress up real well. And he said, OK,
so we walk over to court. I’m going to teach a polo shirt that has been many big game club written out. on it in an old jacket. And we walk in, and of course,
they picked the jury to federal courts and stuff. And Judge Gonzales looked at me, he knew what I was doing. So I had catchatory care in a briefcase. He sat down, and we sat there,
started picking the jury. And finally, he decided to introduce everybody. And when he said, this is the defendant catchatory, and he stood up, and this is his lawyer, Fred Haddad, and I stood up. You could hear a gasp in the jury,
and he came– This was a trial. Yeah, this was a trial, and he said, OK, you each got a couple of questions, said all the lawyers. So I got up, and I said, OK, how many were sure beyond the reasonable doubt I was the defendant? And everybody raised their hand,
and of course, we got an acquittal after that. It helped a little bit to just show the jury the perceptions. First of all, I mean, they have dress codes. I know they still have dress codes even on Zoom here. But how did you get away with it?
We started with Sanstern, started, and it went up to the Supreme Court. So you’re talking about Ray Sanstern, who was your original partner. I was with him from my second year of law school. And he didn’t wear a tie.
It went up to the Florida Supreme Court. But he got and tried, he got held in contempt for not wearing a tie? He got held in contempt for not wearing a tie. By a judge, the day he got held in contempt, I was in a hunting jacket because I was going hunting. I was hunting. Because no.
liked Ray so it was just a chance he didn’t take anything from anybody he didn’t care who we fought with he didn’t care what he said he didn’t care who he pissed off and neither do you oh he and I fought like cats and dogs right absolutely and so well that went up to the court and then all of a sudden and particularly because back then it not a lot of air came out and he didn’t care what he said he didn’t
care what he said he didn’t care what he said in the summertime everywhere So they started changing the code that no one had to wear a coat and tie in the summer I never did anyhow summer or winter and I still just when I go to trial I’ll wear a tie now Well,
that’s that’s very nice of you and consider it Well, I’m a little old to be sitting like a like a hippie so well You’re so old that Warren judges and people allowed to smoke in courtrooms when you started out when I started out with I could particularly remember smoking in courtrooms I remember picking a jury with Tom Coke or and all the jurors had ash trays the courtroom was so thick with smoke it was unbelievable
yeah I’d light up we used to do the old trick I did once in a while of putting a paper clip in a cigarette so that the ash would stay up and people would look at that instead of paying attention to witness right but but for you know,
you’ve always had a really large personality. How do you think that has played in to your success and the legend that still exists around you? To this day, when I ask people,
you know, who do you think the best criminal lawyers are, you know, in South Florida, at least, your name is always one of those names. Eric Schwartzreich is coming up a lot as well. He’s coming up. He’s a pretty good lawyer,
too. He’s coming on the show as well. So, you know, I think I got Eric… by telling him that you were going to be on the show. So I hope he listens to this. I don’t know. It was Roy Black said I had more balls and brains sometimes.
But it was just– I just wouldn’t take anything. I didn’t care. And I was all for my client. I wouldn’t put up with anything. I mean, I thought prosecutors go to hell.
I wouldn’t talk to them. It didn’t matter to me. And– And I was very fortunate growing up to grow up in a town with a lot of great people,
so people I meet every day. And part of my life, when I quit high school, you know, and then I got bored. But I came down to Florida when I quit high school.
Then I got out of high school. Before I went to college, I came to Florida and I worked on the beach. beach. And I met a ton of people, both in Miami Beach and Fort Lauderdale. I worked at the old sandbox bar in these places back then.
And all the people I met that I hung around with then all became smugglers. And I became a lawyer. So I got very fortunate at starting out with besides Ray having a good clientele.
I had people coming coming to me because I knew him from the drinking in the bars and hanging around the bars and stuff and it all bloomed from there I guess.
You’re talking about the 80s the booming 80s when a lot of people were 70s or 70s and 80s when people there’s a lot of drug smuggling going on into Florida from other countries and there was a lot of a lot of prosecution so I know you were big on that drug scene.
I Yeah, it was great. Great for you as a lawyer. It was fun, too. Especially the marijuana smugglers. I’m still friends with a ton of them. I have breakfast with a couple of guys that I’ve known going on 50 years.
And we still have breakfast together. I have– my best friend in grammar school and high school was one of the first guys to fly in a load of cocaine. And he still had it. In fact,
I just talked to him. yesterday. But so these people came to me, and then they’d get arrested in different parts of the country, and they’d call me to come out. So I started getting established. And– That’s how you built the whole national thing?
Yeah. I went from guys that got arrested here and there, and then I started getting calls to go different places. Yeah, I know you’ve represented a lot of high -profile people. In fact, there was a time when you actually bought a house across– the street from me in East Fort Lauderdale,
and I remember there was a moving truck there and there was some guy helping you unload it, and that guy turned out to be Mark Duper, the great Miami Dolphins receiver,
one of the two marks, and set a lot of records, still very well remembered, at least here in South Florida, and being starstruck, I was thrilled to meet him. I didn’t think I would meet him helping you move into your house.
Can you tell our listeners how that came about? How did Mark Dooper end up helping you move and unload your moving van into your house? Mark got indicted for cocaine, trafficking and cocaine.
And with his brother -in -law. And I brought Bruce into represent the brother -in -law. Bruce Lyons? Bruce Zimmett. Oh, Bruce Zimmett. Yeah.

  • Yeah. And we went to trial and argued in an entrapment defense and it was kind of funny ’cause Judge Marcus, who’s now, I think he’s the Chief Judge of the 11th Circuit and all the currents of Chiefs,
    but Stan Marcus is up there. And it was a typical undercover tape and the language was horrible. And– – What do you mean by that?
  • Oh, the swearing, of course. It’s a drug deal. deal these people don’t talk like they’re in a church and So the prosecutor was it he’s a federal bankruptcy judge now I can’t remember his name.
    He’s going through and he’s going this MF this that the other not swear and Bruce That’s me. You can’t swear in front of Marcus. You just can’t do it. I got up there First they got my mouth this motherfucker said this is this what you’re talking about of on an entrapment defense.

Yeah, no they had him dead. And it was entrapment. It was good. It was well played, let me put it that way. >>It was well played but it’s no secret that you have a way with juries.
You have a way of connecting with juries, of persuading juries. And what is that special sauce? You know this podcast by the way, not just for lawyers, but you know my goal is to showcase legendary prominent people like you as well as the up and comers.
I grew up. So give us some pearls of wisdom here. My family was wealthy. I never acted that way. I went to I got thrown out of prep school immediately within a week of going. Went to a public school in a mill town and made friends with everybody and I everybody and I we were all friends and you know then I quit school.
I worked in in a foundry. I’ve worked in factory. I’ve done everything. I used to race cars. I built car motors. I’ve built– worked in garages. So every time I’m picking a jury, no matter what they’ve done for a living,
I’ve done the same thing at one time or another. And we talk about things like that, so that not some esoteric picking a jury, what will you throw out some of the theories of law.
But I try to put it into something that’s ever– every day that they can understand, and then I throw stuff in that, you know, judges go berserk at me. But what do I care? What do you mean they go berserk?
What do they do? I don’t like that I’ll throw in some anecdote here or there, or something, just something to not curry, what, maybe curry favors what it might be.
But you know, that’s part of trying the case, it’s your personality that does it. You, what, you see any good, look at the old race or change. or What’s the guy in Wyoming Christy at a ranch in your mind?
Get to give us a name now Jerry Spence Jerry Spence all those guys they tell stories. It’s a personality. Yeah, it’s all about the story I remember I went to Chicago seven were there and Bill Kunstler was down in the haven That’s where I lived and look he just said a very smart thing thing.
Everything is street theater. The jury just wants a show. They want to see who does. And at the end of the day, whoever puts on the best story wins most of the time.
Is that what you attribute your success to, because you’re such a great storyteller? I don’t know. I guess. I just don’t give a shit about a lot of things. I’m only worried about my client.
I never– I’ve never been held accountable for this. because I don’t violate the rules. I’ve been threatened a lot of times. But it’s some personality, yeah. I know that I’ve had– and I’m not bragging about it,
but I’ve just had it happen. One case I tried with Alan Ross, who unfortunately died young of cancer. We had a murder case that was 20 years old. And he told the other lawyers,
when this case is over, the only person the jury is going to want to hear from is Fred. For argument and for cross -examination, the jury told a couple of the lawyers, why didn’t Fred do it?
And one of the lawyers usurped it from me, and I just said it wasn’t worth the fight. So I don’t know. You know, you do it so many times, I’ve tried probably 600 trials, you get kind of comfortable doing it.
Wow. Why are you still doing it? I love it. I don’t want to do it anymore. anymore. >>I love it. My wife says to me, she lives in Newport Beach. Well, we live in Newport Beach and I come back to Fort Lauderdale to work because I like working.
She said to me, if you had to go a month without being in a courtroom, you’re going to die. You’ll drop dead, boredom or something like that. You just live for it. And I still do.
I was over at the courthouse this morning. I can’t wait to get there. >>Yeah. And you’re lucky because because on the civil side, I know most hearings and even some trials are by Zoom.

  • Yeah. – And you know, I work with a lot of civil firms and the problem is that you can’t train a young lawyer on Zoom and young lawyers can’t plant the seeds of relationships or develop those soft skills dealing with other lawyers or with judges on Zoom.
  • No, Zoom is horrible. – Yeah, and some of these young lawyers have never even been to court. court live. Everything’s been on Zoom. >> I’ve got a hearing today at 1 .30, and I’m getting ready to start a three -month RECO trial,
    two -three -month RECO trial. And the main witness, one of the main witnesses allegedly has cancer, probably has cancer, and they want to do it by Zoom. And I absolutely am opposed to that.
    So they want the witness to appear live at trial by Zoom? >> By Zoom, or whatever. their other stuff. Right. I know a lot of civil judges will permit that. I know it’s discretionary, but a lot of them will permit that.
    But I know that in criminal cases, since the defendant has to be their present, so do you. So most of your hearings in your criminal cases continue to be live, right? Yeah, they’re mostly live, and I want witnesses live.
    It’s impossible to really cross -examine a witness on a Zoom. On a TV set. Yeah, I mean, I like to walk around. I don’t know what I’m talking about. know and when I’m working and not stand still just just because it just makes me more comfortable I know in some courts I have to stand at a podium I despise it I try to walk away from it I try to case the North Carolina they don’t even let you stand up in the
    federal court I was up in New Bern and that was you know that’s an impossibility with you if you’re a real trial where the The judge makes the rules,
    right? So the judge up there, just stick like that. The judge makes the rules. There’s not much you can do about it. And when you’re in federal court, God makes the rules, because that’s what they are. The old joke that something was going on.
    And they said, knock it off. That’s God’s act. And this way, he thinks he’s a federal judge. And that’s the way it is. I know they have virtually endless,
    boundless power. Yeah. You know? They could be fine. I mean, in a long trial, you get to relate to them. And I know I tried a case up in Atlanta with Judge Vining,
    who had deceased him. We tried a big, racketeering, continued criminal enterprise. They trial in three or four months. And there was five defendants,
    and one of the lawyers was co -counselor. with me because there was a couple of witnesses I couldn’t cross -examine because I represented them in the door. We were there and the lawyer said to me,
    and he knew me from another couple of cases, he said, “Friend, this judge is not going to put up with you. You can’t joke around or make…” I said, “I’m not going to sit in a trial for five months.
    There’s 20 murders in the request.” I’m not going to sit in a court. I can’t be that serious for all of this. Blah, blah, blah. Because I got a jury. And then we had 20 people with the alternates.
    We had helicopters outside. They were afraid somebody was going to break the guy out and everything else. So this guy comes up to testify who was– he’s dead now. He’s literally a mob guy. And he came in with his glasses.
    And he had permission to come and testify because he said my client did something to him. Anyway he’s up there talking and everything and I’m laughing and I get across the exam and the court counsel says to me don’t do it and I just got up and I said excuse me Don Corleone.
    Prosecutors went ballistic and the judge looked and he knew it was going to be a long trial. He just looked at me, smiled and said lay a better foundation. foundation.” So it got the trial off.
    And the trial went very smoothly for everybody except my client. You know, Fred, they say that a good lawyer knows the law, but a great lawyer knows the judge. Is there any truth to that? And how has that played out in your career?
    It’s both. You know, I do all my own appeals. I’ve done hundreds of them. So you have to know the law. Sampson, when I started with him as a law clerk,
    was doing appeals. He could never be a lawyer. a trial lawyer unless you’ve done appeals and you do your own appeals. The feds used to always have to do their own appeals to prosecutors, still are in law. So that’s true,
    and you’ve got to be able to read your judge and know what they’re like. I mean, I always, wherever I’m going, I try to find out about the judge idea. I know they could do some stuff.
    I know that I had a judge in Oklahoma. who in case ended up in the U .S. Supreme Court just didn’t like anybody.
    He left me alone. But he was just, you know, you know, you judge. I talk to some people, this is how you handle the judge. You do it with everybody. How you’re going to act,
    you know, you get some of these old federal judges. I’ve had an 80 -year -old federal judge that didn’t know where he was half the time. I had a judge up in Cleveland, who I was in front of him once.
    I showed up about 25 years later, and he said, “I didn’t like you 25 years ago.” So, well, it happens. >>Wow. I know you’ve represented a lot of high -profile defendants.
    Mark Dupre certainly fits in that bracket. Can you just drop some names of some of the other people you’ve represented over here? the years? Bobby Brown who Whitney Houston threatened to sue me over my representation there.
    They fired them. Oh God, I don’t know. A ton of people. I can’t even tell you. Yeah, I know there’s a murder trial going on right now with a rapper called YNYMelly.
    Yeah, you’re involved in that case? I’m involved. I have the code defendant. Yeah. Yeah, they had a separate them. So I try it next. If they ever get through there in there, they’re starting all over again,
    they had a mistrial after the first trial and then the second trial has been going on for four or five months I think, and now they’re starting all over again with another jury panel, so I’ll try that. So you also do?
    Probably on my 80th birthday at the rate it’s going. That’s not long off, is it? Not far off. Yeah. But you’re one of these guys, you’re going to keep going until… you know you’re gonna you’re gonna die in the courtroom is that your wish I wish I die before I know Plato Triceris up in uh DC was still trying cases in his 80s Albert Krieger which is good in his 80s as he was in his 50s um a whole bunch of them
    are if you look around at what’s going on now and you look at the uh lawyers that were hired early and and and all the stuff in DC.
    They’re all in their 70s and 80s and they’re all practicing as Heavy as they ever did You know, I think Abby Lowles in his 70s Read wine gardens in the 70s from not mistaken Jerry Goldstein out in California,
    I mean Texas is close to 80 The guy up in New York City. Thank you you. He defended the Black Panthers in the ’60s. Jerry Leftcourt,
    he’s got to be 82, 83 years old. He’s still working every day. All these guys still work. Yeah. Once you get doing it, you can’t stop. Yeah, I know. What do you do? I’ve fished everywhere I’ve ever wanted to fish.
    I’ve caught every fish I ever wanted to catch. So once stupid spearfish keeps me from a royal slam. But I mean, how much are you going to fish? I lived in the keys for years I had a house there for close to 50 years.
    I’d go bon fishing. I don’t care anymore You know, I’ve caught it all you’ve done it all so I go once in a while I just my kid and I just fish in Mexico, but you know, I said I told him after three days We caught enough fish.
    I want to go back to work Right speaking of fish a criminal lawyer I know and his office he has like a bass on a mount and it says there’s a plaque underneath He says I opened my mouth and got caught.
    Oh, yeah that’s true Everybody that’s a very famous thing people tell their clients So you end up representing a lot of people who opened their mouth run their mouth Or maybe they’re on a wire or whatever.
    Oh, yeah, but some some crazy stories I know you also do stuff in state court as well, right? Yeah So, you know when I practice I always did well against the older, more experienced lawyers,
    but it was the young guys I had a problem with and the young ladies. I found them more unpredictable, and I don’t know, I just had a harder time with them. What’s your experience with them? There’s way too many lawyers now, so they’re not being trained properly.
    And it’s competitive, I guess, in the place. I only deal with prosecutors mostly, some civil. I mean, every time I have a civil case. did you do one with me with a doctor up in Palm Beach?
    I think we did. >> And I sent out an e -mail because I didn’t know how to use e -mails and I said what a fucking asshole the guy was. And the e -mail went to the judge and to everybody else because you called me up and said,
    hey, you’re not supposed to hit send all. And I think there was a woman doctor we were representing. I think you were on that with me. >> It’s possible. I know we had a little bit of cross -pollination,
    in addition to the fact that you represented me, in fact, you are the best lawyer I never paid. And is it true that you don’t charge lawyers, basically? – I don’t charge lawyers, that– – Why not?
  • Professional courtesy, I don’t know. In fact, the Broward Review was doing an article about me and Dave Bogan -Shoots, ’cause Dave represents all the judges.
    judges I represent all the lawyers usually when they’re in trouble they come to me because they can resolve things I don’t resolve shit my personalities not to you’d rather just go try the case well I my personality is not too good I’m not going to kiss someone’s ass for anybody but they said to me you don’t ever charge lawyers I said no and they said and I was representing a judge at the time they said to you
    charge the judges I said no they said why not I said because they’re just lawyers who couldn’t make a living.” And Mark Spicer called me up, or Mark called,
    “Wonder to them.” Said, “You’re the biggest asshole I’ve ever seen in my life.” But it was funny. >> So that’s nice. But how do prosecutors generally, those who don’t know you,
    who haven’t worked with you, how do they respond to some of your antics or your tactics or whatever you want to call it? >> I don’t know. they usually know who I am for some reason before I get there.
    And that sounds like I’m bragging, I’m not. I mean, you know, it’s covered up by a small group of people. >> Yeah, but they know you’re formidable. They know what you’re capable of. >> Yeah, I mean, a couple of prosecutors still tell the story.
    If a main witness is on the stand, I’ll go sit outside. I already know what they’re going to say. I’ve had a deposition or something in a state case. I’m going to sit outside, just look at the court. courtroom. Jurors aren’t listening to the witness. They’re looking to see how I’m doing outside the courtroom.
    Exactly. And that’s worked well for you? Yeah. When I’ve done it, yeah. That’s a great performative thing. What other great performative tips have you done that you can pass on to the next generation lawyers?
    I don’t even know what I could say. I’ve just– it just– actually, it comes naturally. I don’t even know what to say. I don’t even know I’m doing it after time. time. I remember me at Bernstein said to me,
    what type of Jesus do you have to swear so much? ‘Cause I swear like a trooper and I didn’t even know it. I said, I was swearing? She was, yeah. I said, oh. – You’re talking in court? – Yeah, I was during our final argument.
    I got a little carried away. And I had forgotten all about it, you know. – So I remember a time when you were representing some alleged terrorists on the front line.
    the Middle East, and I know that while you were picking the jury, you used your own Lebanese heritage in the questioning. You remember what I’m talking about? Yeah,
    I think I was representing somebody. That was when the guy sent someone over to meet Osama bin Laden, I think. I don’t remember. I did a bunch of the Middle Easterners. The only trials I remember were the Irish,
    because my mother’s Irish. My mother was a British. large contributor to the Irish Republican Army, so it’s the only time she acknowledged my existence as a lawyer is when the IRA hired me and I represented them for years.
    Really? Yeah. I had heard during the trial I was talking about, where you got up and your first question to the panel is, “Who here hates Arabs?” Oh, yeah. And then you raised your own hand,
    and you said, “I hate Arabs, and I’m an Arab.” No, I’m Lebanese. Do you remember it? Lebanese. Or I’m Lebanese. Yeah. >>Yeah, and yeah, that was with Judge Hurley as I recall. We were doing a trial and in fact one of the ladies I had a question said,
    “Yes, I lived in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years. I can give every Arab a fair trial.” And I said to the other lawyers, “I don’t like her.” And they said,
    “We’re keeping her.” I got outvoted. outvoted. Before they swore the jury, judge called us all in and said, we have an issue. And what happened? And the marshal said out in the hallway,
    she says, I can’t wait to get those error bastards. You know, so it was just something I felt. You need a break? Is that a new client calling you? No. Alright,
    the news about what’s going on in the world. You deal with it? media a lot? You talk to them a lot? I try not to. I’ve never been, I’ve never liked it. I’ve never had an interview done. I wouldn’t let them,
    they’ve wanted to write stories about me. I’ve never let it get done. Have you ever been on a podcast before? No. Really? No, I won’t do that stuff. I’m doing it for you. Why are you doing it for me? What’s so special about me? I figure you’ll make a lot of money and pay me a fee.
    God willing. With interest it would be, it would be a lot. Yeah. No, it’s just, you know. know we’ve been friends for what close to 40 years. I don’t admit to that publicly but now that it’s out there I suppose that we have giving away my own age.
    Yeah you know. Yeah well I give away mine and I hate it but you know that’s what happens. So is there any kind of criminal case that you will not take that you will not represent someone in or? Anybody who’s hurt a kid that won’t do child molesters.
    Unless it’s somebody I have no choice but to do, I don’t want anything to do with them, or rape, you know, something like that. I don’t never saw a kid that needed molesting or a woman that needed to be raped. I hope they kill the fuckers.
    That’s way off bounds to me. >> Yeah, I know they don’t do well in prison from what I hear. >> No, they shouldn’t. >> But you did once tell me that all publicity is good publicity unless you’re a child molester. >> Yeah, not sure. Yeah,
    there’s no such thing as bad publicity unless you’re getting arrested for child molesting. [BLANK _AUDIO] at these people that are getting arrested for porn. They’re not doing too well either, same thing, ’cause they’re all getting kiddie porn. That’s the only thing they prosecute.
    It turns my stomach. >> Yeah, I know you were briefly involved in the Jeffrey Epstein case, and I also know that they’re releasing all of these documents, and some names are coming out.
    And have you been contacted by anyone about that, or? or because the talk is that there could still be more Prosecutions, you know, he’s dead Glaine Maxwell’s in prison But there are these other people who are out there.
    I really don’t give up my daughter Tanya as you know represented I’ve seen for a long time on the on the civil stuff and she said some press called her up, but I I was brought in for the civil case because of the that’s one of the few civil cases I handle because I do not how to do civil I’ve done a lot of it and a couple of his lawyers recommended that he ask that he come to me to do the uh where he his
    former lawyers had sued Brad who was your former partner and uh uh what’s his name uh Jim Miller’s old partner that just Jimmy just died uh you know I didn’t know his partner though it’s it’s it’s the big uh firm.
    Oh my god the guy. David Boyce. And that was that lawsuit. So Epstein hired me mainly to cross it too. And the main thing was to post Brad for two days.
    That must have been fun. Yeah. So what was Jeffrey Epstein like as a client that you could share with us? I didn’t pay, I didn’t know much about them. Well,
    let me put it this way, you know me. I don’t let anybody tell me what to do. Nobody tells me where I’m gonna be, how I’m gonna be or what’s gonna happen. So the worst thing you can do is tell me I gotta do something if you’re a client.
    And I made that clear. I don’t take any, no client tells me shit, you know. I have people like that who, all kinds of people like that call me up, you know. Well, can you meet me here?
    No. No. That’s the last thing. The first thing you can do is ask me to meet you. I don’t care how much money you have, I’m never going to you. That’s how you start the relationship, you know. Fortunately, I’ve done well enough,
    I’ve never needed the business, so I can always say no to everybody. You know, there’s no case I have to take if I don’t want to. And I’ve just walked off one this year.
    First time ever, I hated the guy so much I returned the fee. Really? Yes, something I’d never never do the guy just annoyed me because he called me up and he said I want this done this done and this done and His he was a retired lawyer,
    and he had another lawyer advising him I said I’ll tell you what I said come and get your fee and your fine. No ever darken my door again I won’t have anything to do with it. I’m the boss and they don’t like it don’t hire me I make that clear Wow another unique thing about you Confirmed by D,
    how long has D been working for you? Close to 30 years, 28 years. Amazing. She was actually my ex -wife’s secretary and my ex -wife was a PD.
    Well you have many ex -wives, so which one are we talking about? Well my first wife was a PhD, my second wife’s a JD, my present wife’s an MD and I told her if I ever get an OLO and it’s going to be a GED.
    GED These professionals are a bit much. No, your your your current wife is wonderful. I know I’ve been together For a long time how she puts up with you. I’ll never know.
    How does she put up with you? She’s all she’s a very strong woman, you know, and she just says what she thinks she Certainly never plays to my ego But she just we just get a along.
    I mean, you know, I was just out there with in California for six weeks and You know, we don’t usually spend six weeks together because she like I say she lives out there back and forth,
    but it was nice You know, yeah, she gave up doing surgery and is now Medical director for United Health. Mm -hmm.
    So it’s a different type of work for her if you she just heard her for 22 years, 23 years, 25 years. So it’s nice. – So Fred, let me ask you this,
    and without getting political or taking sides, you know, my policy is always, I don’t mix friendship with politics, I don’t get into political discussions, I respect everyone’s right to have their views, whatever they may be.
    However, what do you think about, just generally speaking, all of these federal prosecutions? going on and the way that they are being perceived and handled by the public and discounted by many as well,
    no big deal? This is the year somebody texted me last night and says, “Well, this year we’re going to find out the truth.” My response was,
    “Indeed.” And I will not get more specific than that, but what is your overall? Because I’ve never seen anything like this before. before. I’ll put it very simply, this country is on the edge. This could be the end of the democracy,
    as we know it, and Trump’s made it clear he’s going to be a dictator if he can. And if he puts in all his people, that’ll be the end of it. So the election is very important. What do I think? I think some of the prosecutions are ridiculous,
    okay? I think prosecuting him in New York on that real estate. This is a civil suit. I Don’t know a single person who doesn’t lie I’m mortgage application if you’re getting a mortgage.
    I don’t have mortgages So but you know everybody lies about their net worth everything like that and She technically and I’ve tried cases where no one’s gotten hurt and people have lied on applications And it’s a violation of law and one where people sold houses made money to banks made money I’ve had a number of those mortgage fraud cases where no one’s gone hurt But the statute says if you if you misrepresent,
    it’s a violation of law with all the other accusations against him trying that case first Set off in my mind a lot of people realizing some stuff is just bullshit.
    Even if he did it no loss no harm and And you know he’s the president so it’s not that great.
    The thing with the other ones, I think the two federal ones that Smith has are strong, strong cases. And what’s going to happen,
    it’s going to divide the country, it’s going to be ridiculous what will go on, particularly if he wins the presidency again, which it looks like he might. Well, thank you. is possible, but I also know that the feds have overall like a 94 % Conviction rate and I know that federal judges are serious They don’t give people a slap on the hand a lot and they will send people to prison And you know it’s something that is
    such a sensitive Topic that you don’t really hear much conversation about it in the mainstream media these days one way or another. But people have commented to me,
    oh, he’ll never go to jail. He’ll never go to prison. And I’m not so sure about that because, again, not taking sides, OK, I’m neutral about this. But if someone gets convicted in federal court of a serious felony,
    they’re going to prison. I mean, is that generally the deal? They’re going to prison. And theoretically speaking, they still have. have senior Noriega’s suites Found in Miami.
    What’s that? Well when Noriega was sentenced they brought him up here and Hoover sent him to jail They created a special place for him as rooms To accommodate ahead of state,
    so he was in a prison Setting but he had a special apartment since stuff like that. So if Trump is convicted of any of these serious cases that you mentioned,
    do you think he will actually go to prison? No. I think he’ll be sentenced to prison. And by the time the appeals and the cert and everything run out, he’ll just be too old. He’ll be medically impossible.
    And it’d have to be, the parole board would have to let him go. I think they would just have to let him go because of medical reasons. necessity unless he’s even stronger than he looks because the guy looks not healthy but I mean he’s a bear.
    Yeah, he seems to just keep going. >>I can’t hit a, well I’m the same age he is, but look at him hit a golf ball and the way he runs around and everything, 18 hours a day.
    So maybe you get some business out of this podcast, would you represent them? Why not? Because he won’t listen. You can’t control him. And you know,
    truthfully, I think I don’t know what’s going to happen in Atlanta. I know what’s his name got off the case. The reps, God, I can’t think of his name. I don’t know why I’m drawing blank here.
    But Steve Sadlot, who has the case now. is kind of aligning with Trump, and I know he doesn’t support him, but he’s aligning with it,
    you know, and you almost become part of the client. You look at some of his lawyers and some of the stuff they say, they’re owned by the guy. Look how many lawyers have been disbarred and reprimanded and suspended because of his lines,
    trying to police him. What lawyer would want that? crap? What lawyer would do that? I mean, I know some prominent lawyers have gotten in trouble. What drives people to do that? I mean, my take on it is,
    you know, if you like someone a lot, that can really skew your objectivity and, you know, to the point of conflating that with what your responsibilities are or with what their liability is.
    Look at that lady he has. What’s her name? Haba. Habba. Habba, the Arab. Oh, another Arab. She’s Assyrian, she says. The stuff,
    like yesterday, we got the Supreme Court, he put Kavanaugh and Kavanaugh owes him. You know, lawyers aren’t supposed to say stuff like that, even though it’s probably unwritten thought.
    And they don’t think, and she’s paid what? Middlebrooks hit her for a million something, her and Trump. for the frivolous lawsuit they filed in the Middle District and Hillary Clinton. – Judge Middlebrook sanctioned her for– – Her and Trump for the lawsuit they filed.
  • Wow. – And they tried something again and yeah, they sanctioned them. And they’ve gotten sanctioned in a number of places. – Yeah, so I know he’s on pretrial release now, I know we have an election coming up and I know that there’s gonna be some conflicting schedules to put it mildly.
  • Mm -hmm. his campaign commitments and his court commitments. So, as much as I’m almost tired of hearing about this and equally concerned,
    I also know that one year from now we’re going to know a lot, we’re going to know how the whole thing has played out, the election and all. It doesn’t matter because he’s going to have his supporters and his supporters growing,
    growing, these prosecutions and everything else his supporters. is getting higher. He played it brilliantly, not having anything to do with the Sanctus or what’s it?
    Haley. >> Haley. That was a brilliant move on his part. >> Was it not show up at the debates and all that? >> Absolutely. Let them fight it out and they’ll come on killing each other. And the only good thing to come out of it is to destroy the Sanctus,
    maybe Holy Florida. >> [COUGH] Well, you know, but I think he’s got a good chance of winning if Biden’s running.
    Biden has done a wonderful job and no one knows it. And truthfully, no one gives a shit. People don’t want them there. And then this stuff now with the Middle East, the young P doesn’t know how to handle that.
    He has no idea how to handle it. It’s it’s driving everybody nuts. nuts and you know that’s a topic that you just can’t talk about with anybody. People have their views and that’s the way it’s going to be and you can’t change their views and it’s just an unapproachable subject.
    Do you think either one of the serious cases with Jack Smith are even defendable cases for him? For Trump. Everything they’re putting out there,
    no. I mean so how’s it gonna go down what do you think is gonna happen where are we gonna be a year from now probably in Georgia in trial what about it that’s the that’s the trial that’s gonna get him I think they’ll try to the the the storing of the documents in Palm Beach cannon’s gonna figure a way to let that go I think that’s pretty much written on on the wall she’ll continue a past till he becomes
    president so he can pardon himself and their they’re trying, now you saw Smith went berserk because the 11th circuit, I mean the DC circuit, the Supreme Court wouldn’t take his emergency petition,
    so go to the DC circuit, they’re arguing it January 9th, they’re gonna issue an opinion as rapidly as they can, they’re gonna petition for re -hearing and re -hearing and bank, that’s gonna take some time,
    then they’re gonna go to the Supreme Court, and if they take their time there, as they do most often. often other than they did Nixon and the 20 whatever election it was with Biden and I mean with Bush and Gore.
    Bush and Gore, yeah, 2000. They can tie that up just past the election too. So you think that’s what’s going to happen? It could, but then he’s got to contend with Georgia.
    So you think Georgia might be the fly in the ointment for Trump? Yeah, Georgia’s a strong case. case She’s flipped how many people and she has all those tapes now they’re bringing the tapes from Wisconsin So so what happens with all of that if he gets convicted in Georgia?
    What do you think is gonna happen? We get sentenced in Georgia and he does what he has to do He can get a presidential pardon, but if he’s I don’t know if they can pardon If he can pardon himself for a state crime the answer is no So so if you think he’s going down in Georgia is he gonna be be in prison?
    That nobody knows. I don’t sentence him to prison. Yeah, I think he’s got a good chance of taking a fall. That should be as big as worry. Smith knows what he’s doing.
    I mean, he’s got a team that’s unbelievable, and they’re loading up on everything. Yeah, they seem very well prepared, but you know. Trump’s team seems absolutely desperate.
    desperate they’re moving to hold a guy in contempt for filing a motion in Lemony hmm I mean that’s kind of absurd it’s not it’s not pushing them to do anything and the stave was so that the defendant didn’t have to burden himself he doesn’t burden himself with emotion and lemony sometimes you just file motions that make you look foolish interesting so where are we gonna be in a year who do you think’s gonna be the
    president what’s your forecast I don’t know. I think, well, Biden won by 10 million. Hillary Clinton beat Bush,
    I mean Trump. She lost in the electoral college. And Biden had enough to win the electoral college. I don’t know this time. I think it’s going to be in the electoral college again. Biden will probably have the popular vote.
    But there may be enough for Trump to get into through the electoral college. College And then what do you think that’s the end of democracy? I think it’s gonna be pretty close all these Republicans are now excusing January 6th Yeah,
    and what do you think it happened or you know how you think it happened they all condemned it it hasn’t gotten any better since January 6th Lindsey Graham and Mcconnell still condemns it but McCarthy and all those people I they all condemned Trump,
    and within a month, they’re down kissing his ass in Palm Beach. And now, what, 70%, 80 % of all Republicans support him? And think January 6th didn’t happen.
    I mean, you watch it on TV and see what happened. Mike Pence, they were going to hang. >> Yeah. I remember when all of that happened. >> Yeah. So, and how do you forget it?
    Just say, “Oh, let’s let it go.” They didn’t impeach him. He’s playing that up as if he were innocent. They didn’t impeach him because they said he learned his lesson.
    Yeah. So I don’t know. >>I guess we’ll find out sooner than later. >>Probably. >>It’s going to be an interesting ride. >>Yeah,
    it’s going to be an interesting next couple of months with the opinions come out of the courts. courts It will yeah, so maybe a year from now. I’ll have you back on and we’ll do a little postmortem I’d love to about this,
    you know 12 I got to get running in a second. No worries. Well, we’re gonna do a wrap anyway. So Fred. Thank you so much for coming I really appreciate it. I am honored. How’d you like your first podcast?
    Wonderful. Really? Yeah I won’t watch it because I want to see I hate what I’d look like or sound like but well, you have a good, you know I’ve always thought you had a great face for radio so I think you’re gonna do fine on the audio part of this podcast I will use parts of this to promote you know the podcast and put it on social media that’s okay with you right okay we got that on tape you know what Fred I
    don’t care either and on that note thank you so much my pleasure this concludes the the interesting lawyers podcast Fred you were most interested most most interesting,
    and I really appreciate your taking the time to come on. It looks like you got some text messages coming in. Why don’t you go take care of that? And we’ll move on to our next episode. Have a great day, everybody. Thanks for listening.
    Thanks a lot, Russ. Okay. Okay.